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Saturday, February 17, 2007

Beware Allergy Scam - Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique (NAET)

I about fell off my chair when I read the story by David Wilcox in the Auburn Citizen.

It's an almost completely positive endorsement of a talk by a chiropractor telling seniors that allergies can be cured by NAET - Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination Technique.

You don't get quackery much purer than this:

Straile links NAET with the successful elimination of food allergies such as milk and peanuts. He begins the procedure by placing a patient in contact with a vial of water that has been charged to the frequency of the food item. Through kinesiology, he measures the strength of one arm against that of the arm holding the vial in order to assess the severity of the allergy.

The mind is then desensitized to the stimulus through manual neuromodulation, a procedure that places pressure on the spinal cord in order to send signals to the brain.

Seniors, run if you can! If you can't, take your canes and beat your way to the door.

Here's what the link from Quackwatch has to say:
NAET is a bizarre system of diagnosis and treatment based on the notion that allergies are caused by "energy blockage" that can be diagnosed with muscle-testing and permanently cured with acupressure and/or acupuncture treatments. Its developer, Devi S. Nambudripad, DC, LAc, RN, PhD, is described on her Web site as an acupuncturist, chiropractor, kinesiologist, and registered nurse who practices in Buena Park, California. [my note: since this was written she also claims an M.D. from an Antigua diploma mill]

...

The Bottom Line
NAET clashes with the concepts of anatomy, physiology, pathology, physics, and allergy accepted by the scientific community. The story of its "discovery" is highly implausible. Its core diagnostic approach -- muscle testing for "allergies" -- is senseless and is virtually certain to diagnose nonexistent problems. Its recommendations for dietary restrictions based on nonexistent food allergies are likely to place the patient at great risk for nutrient deficiency, and, in the case of children, at risk for social problems and the development of eating disorders. I believe that practitioners who use NAET have such poor judgment that they should not be permitted to remain licensed. If you encounter a practitioner who relies on the strategies described in this article, please ask the state attorney general to investigate.

The only good thing to say is that the comments on the newspaper page are highly critical of this nonsense.

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55 comments:

Anonymous said...

Did you try it to say "It does not work"?

Anonymous said...

It works for thousands of people. Possibly by placebo. But I no longer have a wheat allergy that gave me really bad diarrhea, and my psoriasis went away. I guess it works even if your skeptical about it.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like you've never tried it. It is an eastern practice so of course it doesn't cooincide with what the western medical world (in the allergy arena, anyway) has to offer. It correlates exactly with what many chiropractors already practice with the science of muscle testing and accupuncture/pressure. NAET is also more successful than traditional elimination practices that Allergists try (shots), which are only 50% effective, and can be very dangerous. NAET is completely noninvasive and has changed countless people's lives that I know personally, including my own.

Anonymous said...

Why are you quoting QuackWatch?

Do you know who funds them? Ever read anything negative on that site about any prescription med?

NAET may or may not be a scam, but QuackWatch is an authority on nothing.

Steve Carper said...

http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQuackwatch/funding.html

Who Funds Quackwatch?
Stephen Barrett, M.D.

Quackwatch is an international network of people concerned about health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies. The primary focus of our Web sites is on quackery-related information that is difficult or impossible to get elsewhere. The organization was founded in 1969 as the Lehigh Valley Committee Against Health Fraud and was incorporated in 1970. In 1997, it assumed its current name and began developing a worldwide network of volunteers and expert advisors.

Quackwatch has no salaried employees. It operates with minimal expense, funded mainly by small individual donations, commissions from sales on other sites to which we refer, sponsored links, and profits from the sale of publications. Money donated to Quackwatch supports research, writing, and legal actions that can protect many people from being misled.

Many people wonder whether Quackwatch is a "front" for the American Medical Association, the pharmaceutical industry, the "medical establishment," or whomever else they might not like. Nearly every week I get e-mails accusing me of this—and worse. Quite frankly, the idea is preposterous.

I have no financial tie to any commercial or industrial organization.

My viewpoints are not for hire. Even if they were, none of my imaginary funders would actually have a reason to hire me.

Standard medicine and "alternative medicine" do not actually compete for patient dollars. Well-designed studies have shown that most "alternative" methods are used in addition to—rather than instead of—standard methods.

The total cost of operating our many Web sites is approximately $7,000 per year. If donations fall below what is needed, the rest comes out of my pocket.

======================

You can donate to Quackwatch via that page. I suggest that you do so.

Unknown said...

Screw your Quack watch! I had been very allergic to cats, I mean on a scale of 1-10, I was litterally a 15! Fortunately a friend recommended me to Dr. Chau in Oakland, CA and after two painless treatments 90% of my issues were resolved. I live with two cats, handle them and pet them everyday. So say what you want, it saved me and my relationship with my girl.

Anonymous said...

NAET gave me back quality of life. I could not eat much without triggering a migraine, or getting covered in a rash, or getting so congested that I would get a sinus infection..... perfumes made me pass out. I still have mild reactions to a couple of things but nothing bad.... I went to Allergists ENTs neurologists... none of the drugs they gave me worked.... the sinus drains helped but not enough to stop the infections..... then I did NAET. I thought it sounded like witchcraft.
I don't care it worked and I only had to go back a bit after 5 years for a tune up. What could I have done with all that time wasted being sick... and taking prescribed drugs that gave me even more allergic reactions...

Anonymous said...

You know even after 10-15 treatments and a 90% reduction in my symptoms I'm still searching the internet for whether NAET works or not. I've come to the conclusion that it works for some. I used to have a severe acne problem, psoriasis, dry skin, dandruff, etc. After the NAET treatments, I no longer have an acne problem unless I consume too much dairy, garlic, or chocolate. Before the treatment, my acne would surface appx 3 days after eating such foods. Now it surfaces almost instantly and I can correlate the little acne I do get to foods I eat. I did not finish the treatments which I plan to do in the future. I did go to three different NAET practitioners because not all of them know what they are doing or stick to the original regimen or add in their own kicks. Bottom line, it has seemed to help me and I recommend it for anyone who has unexplained illnesses or no relief from any other treatments. But you have to be disciplined in the treatments and follow the instructions for the 24 hours following each treatment.

Anonymous said...

I grew up in with an MD for Dad, I believe in Medical Science. But this really does work. I have a deathly reaction to walnuts and bananas and I went through the treatment and it worked for me. I believe like with all medicine, scientific or holistic there is not a one size fits all. This worked for me, but there is always a possibility of it not working too.

Anonymous said...

It does take several treatments, but has been very helpful for long term benefits. I tried just about everything over the years to help my severe hayfever allergies and this was/is the best!
Ms. Ayers, Daytona, FL
o3wizard

Anonymous said...

NAET worked for me. I had severe allergies all my life which were very debilitating. All my NAET treatments cost about as much as one months allergy medications. I haven't taken any allergy medications for 4 years now and am no longer asthmatic. This treatment saved my life. I highly recommend it. Shame on the the people who are saying these untrue things about it. It may not work for everyone, but for me and 2 other people I know, we were given our lives back. My sinus headaches are gone, no more bronchitis. I'm well.

Anonymous said...

My younger cousin was allergic to several different foods when he was younger. He could not eat gluten, soy, casein, eggs, and a lot of different things. He also had 'leaky gut' syndrome and did not absorb vitamins he needed. After NAET, he can now eat anything he wants without the gastrointestinal problems. He is also absorbing his vitamins much better than he used to. Placebo effect? He was too young to know what was really going on. It worked for him.

Anonymous said...

If you haven't actually tried it, don't knock it. My family has been plagued with multiple allergies and food sensitivities for years. My children and I have successfully eliminated most of our problems. Yes it takes several treatments - you can only treat one problem at a time and it is SO WORTH IT! Stop talking about things you have no experience with.


MCO

Anonymous said...

After initially reading this "article" I was personally hurt by the harsh and shocking words against NAET treatments. I was so relieved to hear so many stories similar to my own standing up for this miracle treatment that truly cures allergies and sensitivities as opposed to western medicine that merely masks the problem while inducing more serious problems with antibiotics. My entire family has been saved by NAET treatments. I started when I was only 12, too young to understand placebos, in order to tackle a sever metal allergy. I've been seeing my Naturopath ever since. He is absolutely incredible. I am so grateful I don't have to suffer under the poisonous remedies of North American medicine.

Anonymous said...

My wife and daughter both were helped tremendously by NAET. I am as cynical as anyone, and I am an "insider"(doctor). The alternative of lifelong steroids, and their horrendous side-effects is only endorsed by the all-powerful pharm cos., and the close-minded MD's they control.

Anonymous said...

NAET WORKS! For 20 years I had severe sudden rapid heartbeats and I ended up in the ER at least 5 times. The doctors found nothing wrong and said my symptoms were caused by stress, solution was a Xanax. What doctor's do best, hide the problem. I took a half and decided to throw the rest away. I discovered NAET through a friend...THANK GOD!! After a few months of NAET treatments by a reigistered nurse /Naet practioner my 20 year old problem began to disappear. I have my life back and feel great. Thank you NAET!!!!

rapidsharesuckspiratedick said...

I tried NAET and 10 years later with no further treatment, I've yet to have a single allergic reaction to tree pollen, as I consistently did for years prior to undergoing a short series of NAET treaments.
The point is that for me, NAET had a strong and beneficial effect on airborne allergies. As for "Real" or "Placebo", why would I care?

Anonymous said...

My daughter has personally benefited from NAET, and it does not surprise me that those representing western medicine would try to discourage people from trying this method. Since it is non-invasive and inexpensive, I would hardly call it a scam in any case. Allopathic ("conventional") medicine has not found answers to severe allergies. Allopathic medicine has a history itself of "quackery" which was just the field developing and becoming more knowledgeable.

Anonymous said...

Steve, I only have one word for you... "BOOM". don't write about things of which you have no knowledge or personal experience. You sir, have made yourself into an idiot.

Anonymous said...

We had the same experience with our sone who is on the Autism Spectrum. My husband happens to practice the Martial Arts and saw that the practitioner was pushing on his forearm when she wanted to prove the baseline of strength without the allergen and then she subtlety moved her hand down to his wrist joint when the glass tube with the allergen was in my son's hand so his arm would go down showing a weakness to the allergen. It is a total scam and it is terrible they would take advantage of people with Autistic children. Thankfully, my son's case is very mild and he will be fine, but my heart goes out to families who have severely Autistic children and wouldn't pick up on this scam. And BTW...I believe strongly in Eastern medicine, chiropractic and acupuncture methods. That is not what this is!

Anonymous said...

My son's egg allergy has disappeared and that means he can eat birthday cake, cupcakes, pancakes etc. That is HUGE for a kid. He is six and he will tell you it works.
I wonder who funds your site..western MD's that want to prescribe us medication for the rest of our lives maybe?
Have some responsibility and integrity in your life and don't post what you don't know.

Anonymous said...

What an awful article, and COMPLETELY UNTRUE. Whoever wrote this is the quack, not the NAET treatment. This treatment has helped my daughter and myself tremendously, as well as a number of my friend's children.
It has literally saved my life when I was going into anaphylaxis from different foods.
YOU DO PEOPLE A GREAT DISSERVICE IN TELLING THEM THIS PROCEDURE DOES NOT WORK. IT DOES! It has been proven in studies to have successful results. Do your homework before bashing a procedure you obviously have never tried

Anonymous said...

My cousin's little guy had severe allergies to many things, including eggs, beef, nuts, and others. He is now longer allergic to any of these things after a handful of NAET treatments. My son has ever more severe reactions to his allergen and I just wish that I living close enough to someone who can help me with a NAET treatment. I will probably have to drive 2 hours to the nearest city, but I believe in this. And if you know me, that would be surprising to you because I am a huge skeptic.

Anonymous said...

"The story of its "discovery" is highly implausible."

That's your argument, quackwatch? What quackwatch argues is NOT using a scientific method of argument - it is what Richard Dawkins calls 'arguments from personal incredulity'.

Anonymous said...

How can you possibly sleep at night and face yourself when you are trying to persuade people that NAET does not work, when in fact, it does. Don't ruin it for the many people it has helped improve the quality of life and the ones who are searching for information.

Steve Carper said...

I thought I was helping those searching for information. You do it your way and I'll do it mine.

Anonymous said...

You're an idiot. I agree with the previous person. How can you possibly sleep at night and face yourself when you are trying to persuade people that NAET does not work, when in fact, it does! Don't ruin it for the many people it has helped improve the quality of life and the ones who are searching for information. You are not doing your part if you are telling people something false.

Anonymous said...

He can sleep at night because he is right. And even if he was wrong, it would still be his opinion and sharing it is perfectly acceptable. All you gullible and ridiculous people need to lay off. If you want to believe in something that goes against facts, fine. That is your choice and you may share your opinion, but you don't need to rip on someone else's beliefs.

Lisa Lewis said...

I used to be the Program Director for the Arthritis Foundation in Nebraska, when we still had a pamphlet all about "QUACKS", and it included ALL CHIROPRACTIC CARE. It included lots of other things that we now accept as useful. Even insurance covers chiropractic care now. SO...what you and other small minds call "quakery" today, tends to be the accepted healthier treatment in the future!

Steve Carper said...

Chiropractic is still quackery, unfortunately. Any official acceptable is a sign of how anti-science the country has become. That's why I need to continue this blog. Thanks for the reminder.

Lisa Lewis said...

@Steve Carper: You prefer pharmaceuticals? You should be better informed Steve. Do better research. I don't have time or the inclination to put more effort into this on your behalf...but on the behalf of your readers: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00328731 This is just one study from the NIH website. You can also find government studies at the WHO.

Anonymous said...

Wow, anybody can say anything on the net. I've seen this make a huge difference in my adopted sons allergies. And to say you're an international network of people concerned about health-related frauds, myths, fads, and fallacies and not put in there that it's your own bias unproven opinion is ridiculous. QuackWatch does way more damage than good, by keeping people misinformed about alternative options. If I listened to half of what it published, I wouldn't have made choices that have dramatically improved mine and my children's lives.

Anonymous said...

Hilarious! Your "smoking gun" is a study sponsored by The
Nambudripad's Allergy Research Foundation. Just did a pubmed search and it only produced Case report involving one subject. This is pure quackery. For every glowing review amomgst the comments, I personally know 2 people who have tried this with no succes. Hearing a few positive reviews doesn't change my opinion. Look at acupuncture,many people swear by it, but good studies, which you can find on pubmed, have found it does nothing!

Django said...

I'm all for something like NAET being studied. If it truly works as some people say this shouldn't be hard at all to see in a study with a control group and then repeated by different researchers around the world multiple times.

From what I have read about it I would be shocked if it had any effect whatsoever. Even so, I'd love to see some studies done on it to show one way or the other.

Anonymous said...

So are you saying that Chiropractors are quacks? You know when you go to one he has more training than a MD. Don't let the scientific community suck you in to their BS. Yes we need doctors, but at what cost do we really need them. The pharmaceutical world has ruined doctors and that is why people look for something different. Sounds like you got screwed over by a Chiropractor and can't let it go. I trust mine and what he does. As for doctors, they are so far gone from the real world, that you can't even trust them anymore. Now for the NAET, I've tested it, and have been relieved of most of my allergy related problems. I continue to test it daily finding more things that react to my system. If you go to someone that does NAET, just make sure they are doing it correctly and not doing what they want to.

Anonymous said...

I really don't understand how something can be a "quack" when it has actually proven to help people. I'm mainly referring to chiropractics. I've seen miracles come from chiropractic treatment. My brother avoided back surgery by using it. Now about NAET. I agree with everyone elses comments that you can't judge something you've never tried. In 20 years from now, science will have proven multiple western medical procedures and practices that we use today, wrong and dangerous with deadly side effects. These are procedures that many scientists and doctors today say are scientific fact. I have been the worlds biggest skeptic on alternative and naturalistic healing procedures. That was until a few days ago when i decided to be treated by a chiropractor using NAET. For the last 10+ years, I've suffered fom SEVERE spring time allergies. Without fail, every spring time around february, march and april, they hit me like a brick in the face. And just this last fall I got them as well. I knew something needed to be done. I was supposed to have an allergy test by an MD done in a few days now. I wanted to hurry it up because i was already getting severe symptoms of allergies. But then i heard about the NAET treatment, and decided to do it. I was still skeptical, but i thought it was worth a shot before i $500 on getting an allergy test. I was strength tested for 10 things. The first 9 I passed with flying colors, but the 10th I immediately failed and my arm went straight down. After the test i was informed that the 10th vile contained the spring and fall allergens such as pollen and grass, etc. I was treated, and for the last few days i have had no allergic reactiions whatsoever. In fact, i still have yet to sneeze or get watery eyes, which are some of my worst reactions. If you knew how many times EVERY day i sneeze, you would be amazed.

Anonymous said...

I'd like to think that I'm a relatively neutral observer. I am an MD, but I also integrate alternatives. Many alternatives lack a scientific rationale, meaning that they can't be explained by conventional medical models. But all models are theories that undergo constant revision. Those who criticize NAET without first-handsexperience, do so because, in their mind, "It can't possibly work." They dont' buy the rationale. (Neither do I by the way). However, to say that it doesn't work based on the incredulity of the explaination is to stand on the side of all who have opposed progress in science and medicine. Think of Semeilweis for example. Quackbusters are the self-appointed agents of the Medical Matrix, a reincarnation of the Medievel Dominican Dogs of God. The essential question is not if the rationale is "correct," but whether or not it works. Closed minded quackbusters can't accept success from an "irrational" intervention; it is simply explained away as 1) placebo response, 2) spontaneous remission, 3) misdiagnosis, or worse, 4) fraud. I find it ludicrous to simply dismiss the thousands of successes as inauthentic recoveries, especially without first-hand observation, which is the foundation of the scientific method. To dismiss without empirical justification is not science, but religion--a defense of faith in the conventional medical model. So, in sum, one must separate the two issues argued here: Efficacy and Rationale. The former is obviously the key, and lies along the empirical axis of the phenomenological plane of scientific knowledge.The latter is secondary, and lies along the heuristic/analytical axis of that plane. There is a third axis, the thematic, which consists of the hidden assumptions that lead to irrational devotion or rejection of a theory or result. Together, the 3 axes comprise the three dimensions of propositional space of scientific knowledge.

Anonymous said...

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00328731

There were 26 subjects in this one. So, what you are saying is, that unless there is a double-blind placebo study conducted completely independently of Nambudripad's Allergy Research Foundation, that is to say, initiated and conducted off-site, by a laboratory, etc...with absolutely no interest in the outcome...you will never, ever take any research (or study) seriously?

Oh, here is one more article, published in Psychology Today:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complementary-medicine/200910/naet-breakthrough-treatment-allergies

Blessings :)

P.S. Are you blocking people that disagree with you?

DrJoeRoss said...

Steve Carper said...
"Chiropractic is still quackery, unfortunately. Any official acceptable is a sign of how anti-science the country has become. That's why I need to continue this blog. Thanks for the reminder."

With this statement, Steve Carper has proved himself a totally bigoted fool . I would next expect him to tell us that Women have minds inferior to men and Afro-Americans are really closer to apes then men. God help us to recognize narrow minded fools when we see them!
Dr Joe Ross

Anonymous said...

You only have to avoid certain foods for 24 hours and then you are able to eat them again. How much research have you actually done? It sounds like you are the Quack here!

Anonymous said...

I have had bad times in my life, the biggest losing a job, and 2 failed marriages. 2 years ago, I retreated from "life" cause it was too hard to maintain. I have a circle of friends, go to church, have a new job, and other interests. Nothing helped, until I went to dinner with my friends (this was hard to do)and one of them was eating cheese. She has had numerous SEVERE effects from dairy products. I was asking her where the closest hopital was so we could take her there, and she said "No worries" I have been "cured". Then she explained how she was treated, and all she has to do is, go see her doc when something makes her SYMPTOMS trigger. She has went to this doctor since 2006. He has treated her with the NAET program,and she can enjoy foods that were toxic to her,ie, which helped her with being able to cope with the challeges of life. I went to the doc and he treated me for allergis and emotional problems. All I can say is I FEEL GREAT, now! All the putrid crap is gone and I feel so good now,I can sing again, like I used to, when my daughter was still living with me. She is Happily married, and now I an happy!!!

Anonymous said...

I think the fact that the vast majority of comments here SUPPORT Naet should tell you something!!! I have had fantastic results myself. TRY IT before making false claims against it.

Ed said...

My son was also diagnosed with Autism/ADHD at 7. After he was treated at around his 5th treatment, which was "Grain mix", my wife and I saw significant result. My son was a different person. He still have a lot of autistic symptoms (At about his 9th treatment) but it really got rid of a lot of his ADHD problem. I will continue the treatment, it's way way way better than giving him focalin XR

Anonymous said...

Naet works! For those of you who say it doesn't must have had an inexperience practioner because the technique itself is very effective. I'm living proof of that and so are most of my friends & family. Just as doctor's aren't all equally qualified to perform their work, so it is the same with NAET practioners. Quackwatch should focus on itself, being run by a quack! Don't let this guy rob you of a chance of a normal life.

Naetmom said...

NAET WORKS! It has saved my entire family. One son has been cured from 150 allergies. Another son from autism, and I have been cured from ADHD. Maybe it is time that we look outside the walls of conventional medicine for real solutions.


Anonymous said...

My chronic rash/hives that only responded to 50mg prednisone and multiple antihistimines every day stopped itching in one day and has not been back. Does anyone really recommend that I stay on prednisone???

Anonymous said...

Ever wonder why people will refer their friends to pay money for naet treatments?...it's either bc they secretly hate their friends or they know naet works and will help them.gee I wonder which one is true?!

Anonymous said...

hi just wanted to say that I tried naet after having a very serious reaction to anesthetics, I was given licodine at a dental apt, and withn minutes rushed to the ER, one of my heart chambers flatlined and I had tp push to get it to operate normally again, it was a very scary situation. That said, I tried naet w/ my next dental apt and guess what!! I breezed through it beautifully, I was even talking to the dentist the whole time. I am now putting my autistic son through it. I HAVE been to quacks who claim they can do naet, but just wanted to note that if their name does not appear on the naet website, they are considered incompetent. So if there name is not on this website, they could be a quack, which is too bad, cause they do make naet look bad when that happens!!!

Anonymous said...

My friend's mother had a severe case of Rheumatoid Arthritis. After trying everything from western medicine, homeopathy and ayurveda, her mother was hopeless. Nothing worked and then from one of his friends he got information of NAET and his mother started treatment. Within 1 month, she stopped taking any medicine for RA. After 3-4 months, she was completely cured. Her treatment happened at Bangalore. I know some of you may be skeptic, but readers this is hundred percent true. NAET cured her of RA. She is in good health since last 3 years.
I am student of science and reason. Honestly, I don;t know how this works but it worked. Self-healing or whatever, it worked!

Anonymous said...

After problems from prescription drugs My health completely crashed. I was sick in bed for two years. I lost 50 pounds. I was diagnosed with rhuematoid arthritis but after going off a long list of foods my arthritis was greatly eased. However, my fatigue was so extreme that I could not remain upright and was in bed for two years. Finally, I had my husband take me for the NAET treatments. After a few treatments my energy started to come back into my body and I began to tolerate foods without severe diarrhea. Now, after more treatments I am full of energy and have a good healthy appetite and no diarrhea or joint pain.
This treatment is a miracle cure whether or not it is deemed quackery by those who know everything. You may choose to suffer from many health problems that could be cured if you worship at the alter of scientific knowledge but one day that knowledge will be done away with and there will be a plausible explanation for why NAET works. There are energy pathways in the body that can become blocked. Western medicine is ignorant of this. One day prescription drugs and surgery will not be the only things considered to be scientific treatments.

Anonymous said...

NAET gave me my life back, no more ER where the diagnosis was always wrong! This treatment works. Those that don't believe can just stay sick. I have no pity if you refuse to take those "narrow-minded" blinders off. Those of us that have tried it feel GREAT!! Thank you NAET, you're wonderful!

Suryabhan singh said...

me also started naet treatment for my child having autoimmune throditis.any one who know cured by naet at

Suryabhan singh said...

i start for my 4 yr kid naet treatment for autoimmune thyroditis

Anonymous said...

Works for me ... and my 2 sons over 14yrs ago.
Just try it for yourself - after all, who the heck cares the most about yourself??
~ Anne Gould

Unknown said...

I just had a treatment today. If it weren't for NAET, i honestly don't know if I would have survived. I went through an extremely horrible depression due to the drug Lupron (now THAT's true quackery!!, telling vulnerable people that the drug is effective). It nearly cost me my life. I'm beyond grateful for NAET. It truly disgusts me when those in the medical field dismiss it as useless when they won't even give it a try.